In this episode, we discuss the complexities of the energy transition with experts from Azerbaijan, Germany, Singapore and New Zealand. They discuss the unique aspects of their energy projects in their respective regions, helping to paint a picture of this nuanced topic across the globe.
In this episode, we discuss the complexities of the energy transition with experts from Azerbaijan, Germany, Singapore and New Zealand. We hear from Peter Struck, Senior Project Manager at HPC, Ilkin Haji, Founder & Executive Director, Sustainera Solutions, Andrew Young, Group CEO, Envirosolutions & Consulting (ESC) and Scott Thomas, Solar Sector Lead and Geotechnical Consultant, Tonkin + Taylor. They discuss the unique aspects of their energy projects in their respective regions, helping to paint a picture of this nuanced topic across the globe.
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Guest Quotes
“I suppose Aotearoa and New Zealand is in a slightly different place to others in the world. We've got a reasonably high proportion of our energy currently classified as renewable. We're looking at 80 to 85 percent. So our energy transition isn't so much a transition to renewable energy, it's more of a continued growth in our renewable energy sector as we see a demand increase.” - Scott
“There's a big project, for example, from Australia that will have the world's longest cable, about four and a half thousand kilometers, which will run from Australia all the way to Singapore. So you've got these sort of regional cooperation things beginning to happen, and that's all really being driven by this energy transition.” - Andrew
“When we talk about the transportation, it is not a task of one country, right? In that sense, you need to work closely with your neighboring countries or the transit countries. One example, we are now planning to export green hydrogen and also gas to the EU. The route is that the pipe starts in Azerbaijan, it passes through Georgia and through Black Sea, it arrives in Romania, and through Romania it goes to the EU.” - Ilkin
“In Europe, oil and gas companies, they are one of the main investors in renewables.” - Peter
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Time Stamps
(00:00) The current energy transition landscape
(02:06) Panel with Ilkin and Peter
(26:43) Panel with Andrew and Scott
(54:37) Key takeaways
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Producer: [00:00:00] Climate change concerns are driving an urgent shift toward renewable energy, pushing countries worldwide to set ambitious net zero goals. Building the infrastructure and getting the necessary investment for renewable energy projects is a huge task, but there's an additional challenge. Energy demand is rising, and fast.
This trend is especially pronounced in Asia, a global center for manufacturing, industry, and population growth. With this growth comes a need for data storage, where energy needs are surging. Driven even higher by AI and machine learning advancements. In the ASEAN region, this transition is marked by efforts to improve energy interconnectivity.
Take Singapore, for instance. Limited land restricts their ability to build large scale energy infrastructure. Instead, they're exploring energy imports from neighboring countries, even going so far as to connect to Australia via cable, highlighting the critical role of regional cooperation in meeting demand sustainability.[00:01:00]
The importance and the complexity of the energy transition across the world cannot be overstated. In today's episode, we'll hear from experts from around the world, sharing insights into how the energy transition is unfolding in their region, and the unique challenges they encounter along the way. For our panel discussion, we'll hear from two sets of experts across the globe.
First, we'll hear from Peter Strzok, Senior Project Manager at HPC Germany. and Ilkin Haji, Founder and Executive Director, Sustainera Solutions in Azerbaijan. Peter leads the Energy Transition Working Group for Energon Alliance and has over 18 years experience in working in the fields of infrastructure and industrial developments, landscape and environmental planning, and project management.
Ilkin specializes in sustainable development and project management. He has worked with various UN agencies. Enter ALEA, United Nations Industrial Development Organization's office in New York as Sustainable Development Expert, UN Development Program, UN Office for the Coordination of Human [00:02:00] Affairs, and Azerbaijan International Development Agency.
Phil: Hello everybody, and thanks again so much for making the time to connect with us today. Uh, Elkin and Peter are really looking forward to having a conversation with you, so let's just jump right into it. So to level set, let's just discuss what energy transitions means. We talk about energy transition, solar and wind are the top of mind, but there's often a lot more than that.
Can you speak to the other important aspects of the energy transition? I'll start with Ilkin coming out of Azerbaijan because I'm sure there's some interesting stuff to start with. How would you describe it?
Ilkin: So thank you, Phil, for the question. So as you mentioned, energy transition, it goes beyond renewable sources like solar and wind.
And in a region like Azerbaijan, which is located between Europe and Asia, interconnected power lines, especially cross border and undersea transmission lines, are very important and very crucial. These [00:03:00] networks are crucial in terms of supplying energy across borders. And at the same time, uh, balancing supply and demand.
At the same time, transitioning, when we talk about transitioning, it's also about upgrading infrastructure to make them more efficient. And at the same time, we are talking about integrating digital solutions.
Phil: Well, that's a great start and we're definitely going to get into more of the regional issues and some more of the technical issues.
But Peter, can you help us a little bit also? What would you add in terms of describing what's important about the energy transition?
Peter: Yeah. Thanks, Phil. Thank you, Elken. I think in Germany, we're coming from a, from a different angle. as a importer of energy from fossil fuels. So for us, it's broadly the change from fossil fuel to renewables, but also as Ilken mentioned, upgrading transportation systems, storage systems, while at the same time not forgetting the [00:04:00] fossil fuel sources we have.
So I would call it linkage energies. So don't forget natural gas, some oil and some coal plants to actually support the transition The renewables and slowly phase out the fossil fuels.
Phil: So you guys have some very different regional priorities, right? One place is a mass producer of energy that's thinking about exporting it and continue to upgrade the grid so that you can do that.
And the other has been importing a lot of it from the, from across the regions that you talked about. Peter, how is a transition different and as a balance of energy that's created in Germany versus imported to Germany shifts, how would you describe the difference in the infrastructure in maintaining that balance or monitoring that balance?
Peter: Yeah, I think it's very interesting because for me, there's like four pillars production, transportation, storage, and consumption. And I think in the first three pillars, that's where a lot of things are changing in terms of produce, like [00:05:00] say solar or wind on site, then that's becoming, well, it's becoming a source.
It becomes an independent source and makes the, well, our economy. are more independent from external sources, which at the same time, yes, supports the freedom of production of industry,
Phil: industry goods. So production now can be more local, it can be more diverse, but distribution is, distribution through the grid is different because of some of the, because of the nature of the renewables, the nature of Particularly our wind and solar, but there are other, there are other ways to, to supplement, for example, fossil fuels through alternative fuels, but consumption is seemingly only increasing and because it's an industrial dense economy, probably extending its timeframe.
Are there any other things that you think that impact the pillars, Peter, in terms of that are unique to Germany or that part of Europe?
Peter: Yeah, I think one of the main differences in, in Germany is our production [00:06:00] of renewable energies is, well, it's wind and a lot of it is produced in, in the north, whereas historically, the consumption of the energy is in the south or the west, where, where the, the main industrial areas are lying.
So, and that's where the transportation and storage comes in. You have to rethink the whole bit in terms of having it set up historically. Let's say east west from nuclear power plants to as production to consumption areas. We now have to think about a shift to north south and that's where some of the main projects are actually happening in terms of transportation and also storage and upgrading and changing
Phil: the grid.
Thanks, Peter. That makes a lot of sense and really puts a nice picture on it. Ilkin, if we're going to double click into this topic, can you talk a little bit about what is unique about the energy transition to your region that maybe you didn't already touch on?
Ilkin: As I mentioned in the beginning of my speech, so we have been heavily reliant on oil and gas and fossil fuels, right?
And for the past few [00:07:00] years, we have been observing that transition to renewable energy or energy transition is not just, it's not just a commitment, but also we see the realization of these targets of these initiatives. Uh, what makes unique our region is that, uh, yes, we have oil and gas resources, but at the same time, the country has up to 300 gigawatts of renewable energy capacity.
Okay. And mainly, we are talking about offshore and onshore wind, wind energy and solar energy because the number of sunny days in a year, they're enough. And we have quite large area which can accommodate solar radiant, solar radiant regions. Uh, and, uh, at the same time, we see that international energy companies, especially from Middle East.
And some traditional energy companies like Total BP, they're heavily now investing in renewable energy [00:08:00] projects. Another unique point is that, personally, it was very interesting for me to observe how state oil company, which has been dealing with oil and gas now, transforming into a renewable energy company because recently SOCAR, which stands for state oil company, they have established SOCAR Green.
So SOCAR Green now has a mandate of supervising and at the same time implementing some renewable energy projects. Yeah. So when we look at the, at the picture, at the macro level, we see that the country Still uses the benefits of fossil fuels at the same time using the revenues to invest into renewable energy projects, which at the end of the day will bring us to energy transition and will have a positive impact on that.
And at the same time, last point that I wanted to mention, the signals that we see are [00:09:00] not just for energy transition, but at the same time to enhance sustainability and to cope with the climate change at the country level.
Phil: You make three really great points there, Ilkin, and I was actually going to ask a question about that because understanding that Azerbaijan can still be a net mass exporter of energy as it moves into the renewable transition, the big question to me is, Transportation and storage seem to be critical issues, critical components of building that infrastructure.
But there's also the conversation that triggers the conversation that you suggested about impacts of that energy transition. So, maybe I could start with you, Ilkin, and then we'll go to Peter and just talk about what are some of the concerns. Whether they're social or environmental or otherwise about the infrastructure requirements that are, that are necessary in order to continue exporting this energy at scale or importing this energy at scale.
Ilkin: This is a very interesting question, and this is something new, right, for our country and [00:10:00] for most parts of the, of the world. When we see integration of new technologies, they're always costly, right? They require, in most cases, they require multi million or even multi billion investments. So one of the issues is that these transportation routes, these interconnectivity, they are quite costly.
Another point is that there's always a question in terms of how it will affect the communities, how it will affect biodiversity. Um, so these are, these are some concerns, uh, but at the same time there are some, uh, positive, uh, aspects of this trans, uh, of, of this transition is that we see new professions.
It positively affects the job creation. And when I travel out of Baku, which is capital city, I see a lot of wind turbines and solar panels out of main cities, right? And at the same time, it. It allows to use the [00:11:00] outskirts of big city or remote areas of the country, and at the same time to kind of revitalize those regions that, let's say, that were out of sight, if I can say it this way.
When we talk about the transportation, it is not a Telescope 1 country, right? Like, in that sense, you need to work closely with your neighboring countries or the transit countries. Like, one example, we are now planning to export green hydrogen and also gas to, to, to the EU. The route is that the pipe starts in Azerbaijan.
It passes through Georgia and through Black Sea. It arrives in Romania and through Romania, it goes to the EU. So at the same time, it creates a regional cooperation or in another words, it boosts regional cooperation and also the economic dynamics.
Phil: So Peter, how do you guys think about this whole [00:12:00] transition and the interdependence of different countries and neighbors?
The energy transition as well as the social, environmental or political issues that could arise from that.
Peter: I think Iken has a, has a really good point there. And we definitely see similar things in, in, in Germany, or let it's, let's say in in Europe as well, like oil and gas companies. They are one of the main.
Investors in renewables. And what we also see within Germany, I'm sitting in the Northeastern part of Germany, which is a very rural area, very sparsely populated and income is well, the lowest within Germany. However, with there's lots of space for, for wind turbines, for solar parks, and all of a sudden these industries create industrial jobs in areas where there's historically no industry in rural areas.
And it gives the farmers or the landowners An additional benefit to, you know, make money on, on their land. It's an equalizer in terms of wealth and income to, to some degree. [00:13:00] So I, I second that. What, what Iken says, what he sees in, in Azerbaijan. And if you just go beyond Germany. For example, well, the Scandinavian companies are big investors in renewables.
And just one example, which has been in the news very recently, Denmark is transforming the island of Bornholm, which is northeast of Germany in the Baltic Sea into an energy hub. And Equinor as a, as a big oil and gas company from, from Norway. Just bought a 10 percent stake in Ørsted, which is the developing company of that island.
So very interesting how major oil and gas companies try to diversify their portfolio in terms of preparing for, yeah, for the future as well.
Phil: Well, I mean, it makes sense in the, in just the way that it kind of doesn't make sense. It actually does. Right. But then I say, people usually say oil and gas, big, bad, dirty energy, but they have a history of doing big projects.
They have know [00:14:00] how that the engineering to get things done and energy has been their business. So what started it out greenwashing, Oh, and you add to that the fact that the costs of oil and gas projects are going up so much while the costs of renewable projects are going down. And the demand for energy is ever increasing.
It seems to make sense that this transition is actually real, even though some people might not appreciate or like the head start that the oil and gas, the traditional oil and gas companies have had. I'm sure you hear that a lot in an oil and gas heavy production state country. Like Azerbaijan, Ilkhan, how would you respond to that?
Ilkin: This is a very interesting point, actually. In most cases, and very often we hear criticism against oil and gas exporting, producing countries, right? I do understand the concern behind, behind it. And I understand why there's so much concern, criticism. I do understand that. And I don't. Exclude in most cases, or in some cases, [00:15:00] greenwashing.
But when you look at this from a different perspective, the energy transition requires a huge amount of investment, right? And, and the, the, the companies, the stakeholders and the sector that can afford this amount of investment, it's also the energy companies. So the question is, I think, Here, we should reflect on, is it a guilt of a country to have oil and gas resources and have a oil and gas company, or we should criticize them when they have fossil fuels and they don't care about this transition, right?
So I think this is the topic where we need to be sensitive and have a very unbiased assessment and conclusions.
Phil: Sure, because I'm sure there's probably a lot of fear and a lot of mistrust in people who are looking at those companies and those countries. But Peter, I mean, how do you, [00:16:00] how do you think about this, this topic?
Peter: Yeah, I think we talk about big, big projects and we have to be careful that big projects don't have a big impact. So we don't make the same mistake again as we did in the past. And that's where, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, well, you mentioned before, you asked a question where we're involved and, and that's where we as consultants come in, in terms of environmental impact assessments.
We do feasibility studies in terms of where to put the transportation lines, where to, where's the best storage area, also looking into what might work best in a regional area. For example, in the Munich area, we have a, a lot of geothermal potential, so you know, use what's regional available as well to minimize the impact of transporting the energy you produce somewhere else.
So yeah, that's where we as, as, well, and environmental consultants come in, in terms of assessing and actually making sure the, the, the energy is available. Well, the impact on the social and biodiversity minimized. So we all can still live [00:17:00] in the area where, you know, we we've grown up or which are close to our hearts.
So, you know, it becomes a very well, to some degree, an emotional attachment as well. And that's where this is important to, yeah, monitor the projects and guide some of the big investments.
Phil: Well, thanks, Peter. It's really important to understand how you see the, the, the problem, the solution, the trend, but also how your teams work with people, work with developers, work with communities, work with corporations in order to.
Make sure, I love this quote, make sure that the big projects don't have a big impact on it. And I'm going to use that one again. Before I go back to, okay, Peter, can you tell me how this is different than 5, 10, or 15 years ago for the role of the environmental consultant in this entire process?
Peter: I think the role for us as consultants has, has grown and strengthened because the public perception has had an impact.
People are now want to make sure that, you know, when we, when [00:18:00] we do this investments or the projects that they're done the right way. It's not always easy. There's a lot of discussions on, you know, there would be an easier way forward and just stick to what we have. But I think the people realize that, uh, this project can have an impact and can have a positive impact.
And it also, as I mentioned before, it generates some freedom for us as an, as an importer, if we rely less on imported energy. So I think, yeah, that's how the role has strengthened. And when I started studying 2004 impact assessments. Environmental planning was not on everybody's, everybody's list. There has been the 1992 conference and everyone's in Rio.
Everyone talked about it, but since then, I think it's been, it's been a huge change and we see all the university projects and graduates coming out of and then thinking naturally what we've learned in university. So it's, it's just capping on that personally in the last 15 years, it's been a huge, good impact and good change.
Phil: It seems like you're part of an amazing growth industry [00:19:00] and a highly impactful role that will, seems only to likely to increase, but that sounds pretty cool. So Ilkin, when you think about your involvement in the energy transitions, can you share what other areas of focus your teams are involved with?
Ilkin: A few weeks ago, we had energy and associates meeting in Dubai, and there was an interesting moment by one of our associates that When they started their consulting firm, like 20, 25 years ago, the EHS topic was just emerging and especially in, uh, in oil and gas industry.
But now when you look at the industry, so the landscape is quite complex, the requirements are quite tough, and at the same time, the information flow is larger than it used to be 20, 25 years ago, right? Now. It's not only about the government, international regulations, but it's also about the consumers through social media, through the news outlets.
So that's why [00:20:00] to respond to your also previous question to Peter, I would say that now we see a more complex landscape in terms of. Local and international regulations, and when you add also there the ESG and other international frameworks requirements, so the picture gets even more interesting, I would say, and about our role, so we are mainly in the marketing.
In the initial phases of the project, we support our clients with feasibility studies in the early phase of the project. And at the same time, our main focus is on the environmental and social impact assessments. Because, as Peter mentioned, like not any, if a project is a large project, it doesn't mean that that the impact will be large and positive, right?
So that is why before realizing that large project, it's always important and crucial to assess what will be the impact on communities, on biodiversity, [00:21:00] on the landscape, on the future of the region. So to summarize, we are mainly supporting clients in terms of feasibility study, And environmental and social impact assessments.
Phil: And you've been bringing up the tactics of that is a really important point because we understand that for EHS consultants, a big piece of the work is around permitting, right? Getting permits to be able to install and operate the sites. And I understand that. You guys, that the work that you do on these social and environmental impact assessments are part of that.
I'll start with Dilk and then go back to Peter in the last couple of minutes that we have together. Can you just talk a little bit about the challenges organizations are seeing related to permits, other obstacles you're experiencing, and maybe some tips or tools for how to address those challenges?
Ilkin: Permitting is, I would say, a foundational component of energy transition, right? In most cases, the clients face challenges in terms of the alignment, both with [00:22:00] national and international standards, right? And when you also add their compliance with EHS regulations, so this is another challenge. And as EHS consultants, I think our role is more about navigating the clients through this complex regulatory landscape, I would say.
Phil: Yeah, it sounds like developers have to get everything right in a very complex and dynamic landscape and take in more factors to account than possibly ever they ever have before. Peter, is there anything else that stands out as a, as a key obstacle or key challenge that we would highlight?
Peter: Yeah, I like to share, I've been on a conference for wind energy and solar for the last two days and the subtitle of the conference was translated from German into English, something or someone is always waiting.
And then there were bullet points, people, permits, supply chain, transportation, workforce, [00:23:00] grid. So I think that sums up a few challenges that the developers are facing. And it all comes down to, to people. It all comes down to people because we're doing the work. And as we do environmental impact assessments, hydrological assessments, we quite often in the role of project managers and finding for the investors, the right people to, to bring actually the project forward, finding resources for their projects.
So we're managing resources. Yeah. And that's, that's one of the biggest challenges I think to stop people waiting or projects waiting and cooperation. Collaboration is, yeah, is, is one of the, or two of the key things that I, that I
Phil: see. Well, I mean, I think you bring up, you guys both bring up a couple of really key points about the importance of permitting, the importance of people.
It's almost visual, I can almost visualize that somebody is always waiting because you have to move something from one place to the next place and then wait for the right people to come up and get the, get the. The right work done [00:24:00] at the right time. And the last question that I'll ask you guys before we, we wrap up is I know that internally, Peter, at the top, you talked about being the leader of the Energy Transitions Working Group.
I know that internally by sharing information, not only across what you've learned inside of Germany or inside of Europe, but from around the world, the team becomes better at serving clients globally. Can you guys talk a little bit about what the energy transition group is and what sort of lessons you've learned from different parts of the world that can help you execute close to home?
Peter: Yeah, for me, it's last couple of months has been mind blowing that there's so many things happening. in, in various regions. And the energy working group is almost like facilitating the sharing of knowledge and knowing who of our associates is, is further ahead in some of the topics. I know that Antea in, in Netherlands are quite far ahead in terms of hydrogen.
Uh, so that's something where we can learn from. I think when it comes to [00:25:00] geothermal, there's something we could learn from, from Tonkin and Taylor in New Zealand. When it comes to subsea cables, that's where it comes to. ESC comes to my mind or floating solar panel in Singapore. So it's just, yeah, I see myself as a facilitator to get my head around who's good in, in which areas and what are the, you know, interesting projects and how we could support and help each other moving quicker, bringing the projects quicker forward.
Phil: And it goes back to your point about finding the right people, Peter, and Ilken's point about the collaboration that's required between neighbors to make these different parts of the equation work for both the producer and the consumer and everyone along the value chain of the energy, which is super important.
Ilken, is there anything you'd add to that?
Ilkin: Uh, yeah, just one point on, on, on top of Peter's. So the, the energy transition group and in general, the energy and alliance, so we benefit from it as an internal knowledge sharing platform. And at the same [00:26:00] time, in most cases, when we receive unique requests from our clients, we know that even if we don't have that expertise within the alliance, somebody has it, some company already has this experience or they have already carried out a similar project.
So, in that sense, this is like both for, for internal experience and knowledge sharing and at the same time, providing services with local knowledge and international practices.
Phil: Well, I don't think we could have ended on a, on a better note. Thanks Ilken for that comment and thanks. But, uh, both of you for sharing a little bit of your wisdom and insights with our listeners.
very much, Phil.
Producer: Next, we'll hear from Andrew Young, Group CEO in ViroSolutions and Consulting Singapore, Board Member of Inogen Alliance, and Scott Thomas, Solar Sector Lead and Geotechnical Consultant at Tonkin Taylor. Andrew has over 30 years of experience in [00:27:00] the Asian environmental industry. He is a highly respected environmental specialist and has provided advice to government and private sector clients across numerous countries in East, South, and Southeast Asia.
Scott provides expertise in the conception, planning, and delivery of multidisciplinary utility scale solar projects with particular experience in solar projects in the Pacific region.
Phil: So Andrew Scott, thank you so much for making the time to meet with us today. So broadly, to level set, let's start the discussion talking about what energy transition means. We talk about energy transition for most people, solar and wind are the things that come to mind, but it can be a whole lot more than that.
So can you speak to the other important aspects of energy and transition than just those two means?
Andrew: So, I mean, for us, I think energy transition in a nutshell is basically, you [00:28:00] know, at the moment, all our electricity or energy comes from fossil fuels, which is, you know, diesel, petrol, coal, gas, oil, and so on.
So, this is where we generate all our power. So, it's about finding a different energy source. That's, and we're transitioning from, from the coal and the gas to the new energy source. Primarily the new energy source that everyone's looking at is what they call renewables, which is wind, which is solar, which is hydro, all these sorts of things.
So that's in a nutshell, this is transition, but to enable that transition, all sorts of things need to happen. We need to link up power grids together, a lot of the new sources of what they call intermittent, only suns during daytime, doesn't have sun at nighttime, so you don't have energy generation from solar.
So you have this intermittent power. That means you need some storage. So, you know, you've got a lot of investment into battery technology, things like that, and everything that connects up. These solar and wind plants to the batteries and to the grid. So you've got this whole infrastructure piece in there as well.
So the energy transition [00:29:00] is moving from, from this one source into multiple sources of power and everything that enables that to happen.
Phil: So Scott, for the uninitiated in the energy transition, and I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who might fit that, that, that definition. What is it about renewables that is so different than traditional fossil based energy systems?
That requires all the infrastructure that Andrew was talking about.
Scott: Yeah, no, it's a good point. And the renewables really are, when you're thinking wind and solar, they're not generating 24 7. They're intermittent energy generating facilities or resources and demand is also fluctuates, but it often doesn't align with the generation peaks that we see with solar.
So, The transition is, as Andrew mentioned, encompasses batteries and, and whether we use our assets, existing assets, uh, such as, uh, hydro, uh, in a different manner. So we, we can look at implementing this or battery energy storage systems, [00:30:00] but we could also use existing hydro assets and, and different ways to smooth release of energy into the grid.
And yeah, on, on the On the energy transition, I suppose Aotearoa, New Zealand is in a slightly different place to others in the world. And we've got a reasonably high proportion of our energy currently is classified as renewable. We're looking at 80 to 85%. So our energy transition isn't so much an energy, it's not so much a transition to renewable energy.
It's more of a continued growth in our renewable energy sector, as we see it. Demand increasing, and those factors that are increasing the demand of population growth, data centers, and then residual, residual economic growth and immigration.
Phil: So Scott, you jumped into something that we definitely want to talk about, which is regional differences.
And what I heard you say is New Zealand has a lot of renewable already. It needs to expand because of population growth or industrial growth or otherwise. Andrew, how would you say that's different for Singapore or parts of Southeast Asia?
Andrew: Yeah, well, I mean, Southeast Asia is [00:31:00] quite a big area, right? I mean, you've got three, four hundred million people, or more than that, I think, living here.
I mean, a diverse range of countries. They're all at different stages of development. So, Singapore is a very, very developed city of about six million people in the center of Southeast Asia. But around it, you've got all the countries which are still developing. So, the grids aren't really linked up for a start.
So, it's quite difficult to, to transport energy between different countries. I mean, the other thing, so you've got a lot of big countries, a lot of big, bigger population, but you've also got a lot of small islands dotted around Singapore being one of them. So those small islands tend to have no energy resources at all.
Big contrast, I say, to New Zealand. So they tend to have diesel power plants, or if they're bigger islands like Singapore, maybe a coal power plant, some, some gas power plants, energy is imported. from other areas. So, um, that's a big difference, say, to New Zealand, where there's a lot of indigenous resources in country.
Phil: Is there anything these countries are doing to work together to solve the problem of the energy [00:32:00] transition and the different levels of, um, infrastructure that they've got?
Andrew: Yeah, there's loads of stuff going on, hey? I mean, we're doing a bunch of work in that space. So, so you look at Singapore, I mean, Singapore started looking at the energy transition probably, oh, 10, 10, 15 years ago, I guess.
They started building solar on, on rooftops and things like that. And they kind of ran out of space. So there's not enough space in Singapore, it's, it's probably the most urbanized part of the City on the planet, I think, in terms of density of population. So they don't have the space to build these big solar plants.
The solar needs a lot of land to generate power. So they don't have it. So what Singapore is thinking up for the countries around it. So we're working on several projects. One is to build a massive solar power station in Indonesia. covering a few thousand hectares of land. So that's the solar plant there.
Then you'll have a power cable from Indonesia to Singapore to bring that power into Singapore. So there's projects like that going on. There's another big project, for example, from Australia that will have the world's longest [00:33:00] cable at four and a half thousand kilometers, which will run from Australia all the way to Singapore.
So you've got these sort of regional cooperation things beginning to happen. And that's all really being driven by this energy transition. Yeah.
Phil: That's pretty, pretty amazing. It sounds like a pretty long cable. Are there differences also in the basic structure of the grids? I can only imagine what it takes to make that thing, but are there, is there, are there differences in the structure of the, of the power grid?
I mean, in the U S we'd have these big central power. Power plants with these high tension, high power wires that go down to substations. Does that work the same way in, in Southeast Asia or are they big differences too that cause some problems?
Andrew: Yeah, there's big differences across different countries. In Singapore, I mentioned they started investing maybe about 15 years ago, looking at these things called micro grids.
So micro grid, they just pick a small area in Singapore and start plugging in things like hydrogen and batteries and solar to see how the grid reacts. Because there are different upgrades. I'm not the electrical engineer. I [00:34:00] kind of need someone with a lot of technical knowledge to go and look at that sort of thing.
But, but testing it, I think it's quite important because once you start plugging in different power sources, like you say, you go from one big coal plant, you know, coal plant, which just provides all the power to lots and lots and lots of smaller plants. You get this thing with what they call a load balance that can cross the grid.
So you don't want it to trip. So anyways, there's a lot of research that goes into that. Singapore has kind of invested a lot over the years to enable this to happen. And I guess maybe two, three years ago, we worked on a big battery plant here to essentially be able to store power from intermittent sources so that it has about two days worth of discharge in it.
So that was done a few years ago here. So Singapore's been prepping up for this for quite a while, right? And then you go across to countries, say, like Vietnam, which is in Southeast Asia, and they have a lot of solar plants already, and they have a lot of wind plants already. Their challenge is linking up to the grid, so the grid hasn't been upgraded sufficiently.
So a lot of these assets, like a small WIM file has been built, but it couldn't be plugged into the grid [00:35:00] yet because the grid can't manage the intermittent sources. So you have this kind of variability across the region, which has been addressed, but it takes time, hey?
Phil: Sure, and I would expect that it's going to change over time with the factors that Scott talked about in terms of population, population density, growth of industry, maybe even climate change.
But before we go there, I want to ask Scott, can you talk a little bit about the main areas of focus where your teams are involved? I mean, Andrew led into this a little bit talking about some of the projects he's working on, but can you talk about that a little bit?
Scott: Yeah, sure. So solar and wind are massive drivers here at the moment, and there's some new legislation going through at the moment called fast track legislation, and that's designed to speed up infrastructure projects that are deemed critical to the nation.
And Um, the, the long list that's been released includes about 20 percent of the 150 announced projects, the renewable energy projects, wind and solar, and, and there's, there's big demand out there to develop these. [00:36:00] The energy prices are at a point where developers and financiers are seeing it as a favorable market to enter into.
So the landscape will change. It is changing. It's just going to be probably a drawn out process as our transmission infrastructure, as we've talked about, it copes with that. The transmission connection and commissioning piece is a substantial, but it's a critical piece in the whole development puzzle and it is taking some time.
It's noted that large complex projects are going to take up to three years to be commissioned. So once you factor that in, you're getting, you're getting close to 2030 by the time you've gone through everything else.
Phil: When we talk about internally, internally for talking to Taylor or for EnviroSolutions Consulting, what are the things, what are the sort of things that your teams are working on with regards to these projects?
Scott: At the moment, we're seeing the renewable energy sector as being really relationship driven. So at the moment we're, we're continuing our relationships with the GenTaylors. So these are the generating retailers of New Zealand. They're established companies that have been around for some [00:37:00] time that are now diversifying their, Asset and generation base, but again, there are a number of developers, offshore developers that are coming into the New Zealand market who, who we need to be trusted advisors for.
They need to rely on our expertise within the New Zealand market, our longstanding business and reputation and industry. So that's really what we're focusing on now is relationships with these companies that are coming into New Zealand and, and also we've got company goals as well around. Being sustainable business and contributing to the renewable energy boom, so to speak, and electrification of Aotearoa New Zealand.
Phil: And what is it that you do for these companies that they don't have the internal capacity to do themselves?
Scott: There's a lot of regulatory framework and codes and standards and compliance issues that they're running into. I say running into, but they're actually not really existent. There's not a framework that you need to adhere to if you're, if you're constructing a solar farm, for example, of utility scale.
So there's pieces of legislation, like the building code and, and electric, [00:38:00] electrical standards that would be adhered to, but there's not an overarching performance criteria that these developments are built to.
Phil: And are those standards different in different municipalities? One city has one standard, another city has another, so they have to really understand the local challenges?
Scott: Yeah, they do. We're not a big country, we're not much over 5 million people, but we've got 68 or 72 territorial authorities. Now, these are consenting authorities, so each of these have staff within them that will consent, whether it's a resource consent or a building consent, they'll consent aspects of these developments and some of the smaller.
Territorial authorities are the ones where these solar developments are cropping up because of their um, their rural nature and they don't necessarily have the expertise or, or the track record to approve these projects. So there's an element of that and, and it remains to be seen how this, this will be worked through.
And then you've got other major centers, Auckland and Christchurch, that have got projects happening in their jurisdiction and, and they're a [00:39:00] lot more geared up to, to approve and review these processes. So. Yes, there is quite a discrepancy between territorial authorities and regions within New Zealand.
Phil: So, Andrew, are you seeing the same sort of challenges in this regard in providing the same sort of services across the region you serve?
Andrew: Yeah, so I think the market in South East Asia is quite diverse, right? It's very big, it's a bunch of countries, they've got different sort of regulatory environments.
So what that's led to is it's a big growth market as well. So just to take a step back and look at maybe energy demand and, and the drive for renewable energy sources as well. You know, we were doing a lot of work with data centers, new data centers coming in to, to, to Asia. We must have worked on a hundred, 200 data centers over the last or 15 years and they're investing in, in, in Singapore.
Singapore's got maybe 200 data centers. They're investing Hong Kong and Malaysia and so on. So Singapore kind of led the way at the start. Each one of these data centers gets built, you know, and they'll maybe use what they call [00:40:00] 25 megawatt or 50 megawatt. They go by size. So 50 megawatts is a pretty big amount of energy.
It's about the same as maybe, I don't know, a thousand households or 2000 households. So suddenly you have this big energy demand and these guys are coming in and demanding this energy. And at the same time, you know, they're reporting back to their majors, maybe in Europe or US and they're demanding renewable energy.
They're demanding decarbonization. So that's one of the drivers in there. So you've got this massive growth in demand and a request for, for renewable energy sources to kind of decarbonize. This is, so this is private sector, which is driving it mainly in Southeast Asia. I mean, there was a stage in Singapore, they put a moratorium on data sensors because they just didn't have enough power, they couldn't import enough gas, they couldn't get enough coal in.
So like, well, what do we do? Right. So, so the driver here is maybe a little bit different. It's, it's private sector. So you get a lot of private sector money investment coming in to Southeast Asia. And they're going to, they want to build a wind farm or they want to build a solar farm because they can build these things and then they can sell the [00:41:00] power back to Singapore and it's actually cheaper.
to do that in, in many of the countries than it is to build, say, a diesel fire power plant. Even coal these days, it still renewables is a little bit cheaper than coal. So there's a, there's a private sector drive for this transition in Southeast Asia. So the nuances are a bit different. So, so for us and the work we do, we tend to work for either an Banks, private equity funds, or project developers.
These project developers tend to have things called climate funds. They have a bunch of investors that come in, they want to invest in green projects, but the money they invest then comes with these standards. So generally we'll follow the IFC performance standards. And the equator principles. So a lot of the work we do is driven by this set of standards.
So it doesn't matter whether we're doing the project in Indonesia or Philippines or Vietnam or Singapore. We have to meet this set of standards, right? So which kind of helps in some ways. So this, this is front end piece of work. So if I'm an investor coming in, [00:42:00] I want to build a, let's say a solar farm somewhere.
I have to choose, say, I want to find the site. So maybe I've got 20 sites. to choose from. So we do a lot of work in screening, what we call screening. So help them to find the lower risk sites. So lower risk sites of those sites, which may be I've got, because essentially I need to buy that land. So if I want to buy that land and own it for 20 years to make my money back.
So what are the risks attached to that piece of land? You know, it might be there are current owners there, maybe they're farming already. And maybe these guys want to carry on farming. I mean, there's all sorts of things on the social side. There is then obviously the biodiversity thing, maybe we're worried about certain species of, of, of monkey or ape or bird and these sorts of things.
So investors will try and stay away from what we consider to be high risk sites where there may be an impact on, on biodiversity or social impacts. So we do a lot of work in that space early on. to help investors decide where, where to invest their money. And then once they decide where to invest, then we, we would go into the next stage [00:43:00] of the work, which they call making a project bankable, which is doing things like environmental and social impact assessments, or maybe environmental and social due diligence, which is pieces of work to go essentially and measure that piece of land against this set of standards.
And if we could measure it in such a way that we can verify it meets those standards, then the investor can go back to the bank and say, Hey, look, I meet these standards. Can I, can I have your money and go build this plant? And then you get the investment cycle carrying on. And once that sort of decision has been made, then we'll go on and do the local permitting piece of work, which is locally, the local government will require an environmental impact assessment and require construction permits and these sorts of things.
So then we'll, we'll help our client do that. So we have quite a few touch points through the cycle. We do a lot of work in that screening area, so it's a lot of biodiversity work for us, a lot of social work for us.
Phil: So, Scott, I'm, you know, I want to come back to you on a couple things that Andrew said, because some things we've learned from previous episodes about New Zealand, there's a big, [00:44:00] there is a high level of importance.
on maintaining integrity with the land and integrity with the indigenous population and respecting all of the biodiversity concerns and protecting the diverse resources that make New Zealand unique. So can you comment a little bit about some of the things that Scott mentioned, not only about the social and the environmental, but also the difference between the public demand and the private sector demand?
Scott: Yeah, your issue is potentially the social license that goes with these, and as we have more projects coming online, it's really that upfront stakeholder engagement so that there's not a bad, a bad rap associated with, with this industry as, as it progresses and grows. We're at a point where I'd say the New Zealand public is supportive and there is a general feeling of support towards renewables, but there's also this thing called NIMBYism.
And I don't know if that's necessarily a global, a global acronym, but it's not in my backyard. So, so people say, yep, yep, we feel like this is a great initiative, but. We don't want it to be next door to [00:45:00] us. And I suppose the reality is that, uh, the unfortunate reality is this, these substations and connection pieces where we, we have to plug these in are in certain locations and, and these are effectively becoming renewable energy generation zones for want of a better word or an Australian term.
In regards to the cultural side, the stuff I'm doing down in Christchurch, And the Canterbury Plains, there's not too much of a cultural lens to it. The iwi and indigenous people were more of a coastal and there's fortunately not too much that we're engaging with. In the North Island, it's a bit different.
There's iwi and marae and the likes spread throughout the North Island. And it really is a cooperative piece. And I suppose, fortunately, iwi are significant landholders and they want to generate that. Renewable electricity, they're looking to partner. They have these land holdings, they're not all marginal.
Some of them are, I'd say, consider prime solar generating land and diversifying their asset base and potentially going behind the grid is not a bad option for them. [00:46:00]
Phil: That makes a lot of sense and it's really interesting, actually, part of the geography, history, and the culture. Make it a little easier for you, Scott, than maybe for, for Andrew.
So I want to ask Andrew, Scott touched on something that we wanted to talk about, and it's really about permitting. One of the big challenges we understand for EHS consultants is securing the permits to actually do the work. Can you speak a little bit about the importance of permitting and the challenges that organizations are seeing in securing permits?
Andrew: Yeah, I mean, what a permit is, is basically the local government approval to go ahead and construct and operate that, you know, that asset, whatever it is, right, whether it's a wind farm or a solar farm, whatever. Yeah, so going to get them is a big deal, I guess. You can go and get all this, this, this finance stuff.
Going through there to actually secure the local permits. So, for, I mean, I guess some examples in, in Indonesia. So, in Indonesia, there's no real central registry of land ownership. Or rather, I would say there's central, there's several registries. [00:47:00] So, you can find multiple owners of the same piece of land.
It's a big deal, right? And there's a lot of historical, I mean, you've got this thing called indigenous peoples, which, which Scott touched on there as well. That comes into play a lot. How many? Tribes we have in Indonesia. I mean, there's at least 200 languages, right? So, there's all sorts of things going on.
So, at that level of complexity that comes into play, you need a lot of insights. You know, Scott sort of touched on this consultation and consult, you know, exercises that we go through. And in many countries, particularly Indonesia, Philippines, I would say Vietnam to some extent, There's a lot of consultation with local authorities.
They have government that works at several levels, so you have to work with each level, get them to work together. Sometimes, depending on the scale of the investment, it might go across different provinces, or different districts, and you have to bring these people together. So there's a lot of work to be done just to bring everyone together to enable this thing to happen.
It can happen, it just takes time, it takes some insights, and so on. So that's kind of the social [00:48:00] piece. You have that with the government to secure the permits, and you also have that with The local indigenous people said that the, the two are obviously intertwined in there, so you have to bring the both of those elements into play to, to secure the permits.
You know, if you need this thing to operate for 20 years in order to, you know, get your investment back and, and to, you know, encourage the locals to, to support that for that period of time. It's a very important thing to take care of early in the
Phil: game. That's a, that makes a whole heck of a lot of sense and sheds a lot of light on the challenge that we've got, right?
It takes a lot of local expertise to make something like this really work. So shifting gears a little bit coming from the conversation of permitting, I'd like to go back to Scott in a little bit and ask, what other obstacles are you experiencing out in the field that maybe we didn't already touch on?
Scott: I wouldn't say it's necessarily an obstacle.
It's just a different way of developing these than might have or might have happened naturally. But that's off the back of learning what's happened in Australia, um, our West Island, uh, over the [00:49:00] past decade or so. Um, and that's hybrid solar development. So a hybrid development is a solar development coupled with a BES or battery energy storage system.
And, and the reason for that is, is purely to shift the release of energy into the national grid. When we're generating peak generation through the middle of the day isn't the time where we've got the peak usage. So we need to delay that to the 6 to 9 PM sort of window when everyone's at home cooking dinner.
So I'd say that's, that's going to be a bit of a change that isn't necessarily happening now. And I suppose until energy prices drive that. We won't necessarily see it, see it happening off its own accord. I suppose something that comes into this as well as, as rooftop solar. And I don't really believe we're in a position, well, we're certainly not in a position now, and we might never get there, um, where rooftop solar generation outstrips the utility scale solar farm generation.
And, and the, I suppose it becomes a bit of a potential hurdle for financiers, insurers, and developers as they look to the market. But [00:50:00] certainly An increase in rooftop solar generation capacity would push that, those hybrid developments along.
Phil: And Andrew, earlier you mentioned the, you know, an important word here in the U.
S., data center, right? With the growth of AI, with the growth of computing and an ever hungry desire for data storage and compute power, there is a lot of power that is going towards the boom in Virtualization and artificial intelligence. Can you talk about any specific trends or challenges or obstacles you're seeing in that transition in your region?
Andrew: I actually just spoke at a data center conference last week. We released a paper, so I was, I was interviewed a lot for that. Yeah. I mean, data centers are. Well, I mean, they're just a box, right? It's the box for the servers, really, in the most basic thing. But they just suck in power and they use water, right?
So they generate a lot of heat, you know, your computer, if you feel the heat coming out of it, you've got 50, 000 of those, you've got a lot of heat, right? So they need a lot of cooling. That's the power, right? So you plug [00:51:00] one of these things in and if you've just got one power plant, suddenly it sucks a lot of power that was previously going to, to other houses.
And this is pretty much consistent demand. Right, so your baseload is going up, up, up, up with the addition of these, these data centers. So they use power, they use water, a lot of water for cooling. So I mentioned Singapore put a moratorium on their data centers. So, you know, Singapore is 27 kilometers across, right?
It's a pretty small island. They have a certain amount of power, they've got six million people that live in it. They built so many data centers, they suddenly realized we don't have enough Power. We don't have any more water. All right. So they just stopped data centers last year. They, they, they, they withdrew the moratorium last year.
So they've approved another sort of six or eight to be built in the country now. So, but it took them four or five years of planning to say, well, where are we going to get this water? Where are we going to get this power? So that's on a small scale, right? So that's happening in every country, but other countries are much larger.
They have more power, more water, but they're going to hit that limit at some point in time. So, [00:52:00] you know, at the moment in Asia, we're seeing a massive increase in data centers, particularly in Malaysia, India, China's, another story, we talk about Malaysia, they had maybe 10 data centers four years ago.
There's 150 being built. Right now. Yeah. I mean, this is significant. It'll be Microsoft's first Azure data center. So Microsoft has this sort of flagship Azure service, right? So the first data center outside of the US is going into Malaysia, which kind of says the scale of things that are going on there.
Um, so, you know, I'm just using Malaysia as a case study. It will hit the same wall that Singapore did at some point in time. Unless we start planning for it. So it's a huge increase in the demand for power and a huge increase in the demand for, for water. Both of these things need, I mean, it needs to come from somewhere, right?
So it's a bunch of things going on and I think a lot of countries are facing similar problems like that.
Phil: Sounds like a heck of a challenge and something that'll keep you busy for a long time. So before we go, one [00:53:00] last question for both of you. Do you have any tools or tips for practitioners who are leaning into these projects?
Scott: Yeah, I think maintaining social license is really important. We briefly discussed that earlier. Other than that, it's really just integrity around your work and Just doing, doing good work, realizing that you are contributing to, to national energy supply and national growth and, and decarbonizing, I suppose that's the other aspect that, that is, that is a real aspect and it's, it's a real driver as well.
Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I think I just add to the social license piece in there as well. I mean, I've worked in the, in the industry for a while. Hey, so, I mean, if you look at the risks associated with, with, with a project in oil and gas sector, I mean, oil and gas, It tends to blow up, right, and kill people. You don't have those sorts of risks in solar or wind, right?
I mean, those safety risks don't exist, but the income for those sites, at the end of the day, this is private sector. The income is from those sites and those projects is primarily derived from the [00:54:00] social license. Somebody is upset with this piece of land. I don't want you to use it for solar. It's going to impact you over a period of time.
All right. It's going to detract from it. So it's very, very important. You know, we bring that back to the, to the site screening and you can often screen these sorts of issues out very early stage in a project. Otherwise they just stick to you as you run through it. It becomes very, very challenging to develop that.
Phil: That's a really good point and a great spot to wrap our conversation for today. Thank you guys so very much for your time and really. Look forward to seeing some more of the great work that you guys do in the near future.
Producer: Thanks again to our guests for coming on the show to discuss the energy transition globally. Here are our top three takeaways from the conversation. One, the energy transition is incredibly complex, and each region has a variety of factors and obstacles to contend with. Whether a region is heavily reliant on renewable energies and increasing their capacity, importing all their energy or [00:55:00] contending with increasing energy demands, local understanding is critical when it comes to infrastructure projects and renewable energy initiatives.
2. It's important to be sensitive and unbiased when assessing the energy transition on a global scale. As Ilkin pointed out, we can be quick to criticize oil and gas exporting countries, but the energy transition requires immense investment. The energy companies are, in many ways, best positioned, as far as expertise and finances, to invest in renewable energy infrastructure and projects.
3. Cross border initiatives such as Indonesia's solar plant supplying power to Singapore Show that regional collaboration can address resource limitations. Local understanding and collaborative partnerships will be key to provide mutual benefit across regions. To learn more about harnessing renewable energy responsibly and the role of environmental impact assessments, head to the link in our show notes.
For more tools and tips on how to work [00:56:00] globally with a local lens, Check out the global resources page on the Inogen Alliance website to access webinars, downloads, ebooks, and more. This link can also be found in our show notes or visit www. inogenalliance. com slash resources. Follow Inogen Alliance on LinkedIn for the latest updates and until next time, let's innovate, inspire, and rethink EHS together.