COP, one of the largest and most significant international conferences on environmental issues, just occurred in November in Azerbaijan. In this episode, you will hear from three Inogen Alliance members who attended the event and have been heavily involved in the negotiations as they share their insights and learnings from this year's gathering.
COP, one of the largest and most significant international conferences on environmental issues, just occurred in November in Azerbaijan. In this episode, you will hear from three Inogen Alliance members who attended the event and have been heavily involved in the negotiations as they share their insights and learnings from this year's gathering. We hear from Dr. Amr Abdel-Aziz, Chairman at Integral Consult in Egypt, Ilkin Haji, Founder & Executive Director at Sustainera Solutions in Azerbaijan, and Hilton Lucio, CEO of Antea Brasil.
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Guest Quotes
“COP to me is really where the decision making process related to issues related to climate occur. And by that I mean the negotiations track under the COP always results in decisions that are to be implemented by all parties to the convention. And these decisions are in fact not only climate related, but it impacts development, it impacts economies.” -Amr
“This year's adoption of NCQG, I think it's a positive signal that hope is not lost yet. So with global cooperation, with multilateralism, we can overcome some critical obstacles.” - Ilkin
“It's not a coincidence that this is attracting more and more of the private sector. All my clients, with no exception, are concerned about climate change much more than they were, I don't know, 15, 10 years ago. And now they have tangible discussions that they can understand as well, hey, this is going to cost something. We're going to have to contribute with our business to reach the national contributions. So it's very translatable to my world, the private sector, the business sector.” - Hilton
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Time Stamps
(00:00) Introduction to COP
(01:21) Panel guest intros
(03:00) Key insights and observations from COP29
(08:11) The role of the private sector
(11:17) Challenges and successes in climate negotiations
(28:34) Side events and their impact
(39:45) Looking forward to COP30 in Brazil
(47:27) Key takeaways
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Sponsor copy
Rethinking EHS is brought to you by the Inogen Alliance. Inogen Alliance is a global network of environment, health, safety, sustainability and ESG consulting companies working together to provide one point of contact to guide multinational organizations to meet their global commitments locally. Visit http://www.inogenalliance.com/ to learn more.
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Links
Inogen’s COP 29 Roundtable Webinar: https://www.bigmarker.com/antea-group-usa/COP29-The-Way-Forward
Follow Phil on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phildillard/
Follow Ilkin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ilkinhaji/
Follow Amr on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amr-osama-abdel-aziz-4448a228/
Follow Hilton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hilton-lucio-7429367/
Explore Inogen Alliance's resources: https://www.inogenalliance.com/resources
Phil: [00:00:00] For a final episode of the season, we'll be reflecting on COP29, diving into key takeaways and lessons learned from this year's event. COP29 stands for the 29th Session of the Conference of Parties. For those who may not know, COP is an annual global gathering, where countries and other stakeholders come together to assess global efforts to limit global warming and thus mitigate future damages from climate crises.
The event draws representatives from almost every country in the world, making it one of the largest and most significant international conferences on environmental issues. Representatives participate in a formal negotiation process where they debate policies. Set goals and forge agreements, such as the Paris Agreement, aimed at reducing greenhouse gas emissions and adapting to climate impacts.
Negotiations involve a mix of high level diplomacy, technical discussions, and input from scientists, activists, and industry leaders to create a coordinated global response to the climate crisis. COP29 just occurred in [00:01:00] November in Baku, Azerbaijan. Inogen Alliance had a unique role in the last two COPs, with consultants from seven associate companies presenting at and attending COP29.
In this episode, you'll hear from three Inogen Alliance members who attended the event and have been heavily involved in the negotiations as they share their insights and learnings from this year's gatherings. Today, we'll hear from Amr Abdel-Aziz, Chairman at Integral Consult in Egypt, Ilkin Haji, Founder and Executive Director at Sustainera Solutions in Azerbaijan, and Hilton Lucio, CEO of Antea Brazil.
Amr has been extensively involved in the COP negotiations process since 2015. and was a Senior Advisor to the COP27 Presidency leading on mitigation and transparency issues. He has also served as the Advisor to the Egyptian Minister of Environment on Climate Change issues since 2014. He's currently the Co Chair of Sharm El Sheikh Mitigation Ambition and Implementation Program under the Paris Agreement.
As an [00:02:00] associate local to Baku, Azerbaijan, where COP29 took place, Ilkin has been involved with the local government ministry of environment and with local businesses to put together relevant COP panels and events on energy transition, water resilience, AI and new technologies, sustainability of the future, and more.
Hilton is a distinguished hydrogeologist with 30 years of experience, renowned for his pioneering work in water resource management in the Latin region. He attended COP and presented on water resilience and climate change through a panel discussion held in the Blue Zone, an area restricted for official negotiations and government officials.
Hello, everyone. Thanks so much for making the time to join us. I'm really excited to have this conversation today. Actually, I've been looking forward to this conversation since this spring, since I heard that this group is going to COP 29 in Baku, Azerbaijan. I wanted to jump in and hear about your experience there and share it with the folks who want to learn what COP is.
What it's about and what you learn from this [00:03:00] actual event. So what were your key insights and observations coming out of COP? That's the first question we want to ask. So I'm going to start this by circling around with everyone. And I think I'll start with a guy, I think, who had to travel the farthest in Hilton and say, what is COP to you and what's your perspective of the conference this year?
Hilton: Well, we've been having global meetings for 20 years, but when I came to COP for the first time last year in Dubai, I was like, Hey, this is another dimension of a global meeting, right? You have tens of thousands of people from all over, literally representing very different organizations with very different perspectives.
And they are all under the same roof, trying to find common goals and objectives. It's an amazing social experience. And I'm, I really like it. The more I go, the more I like it. And I'll probably be attending most of the next COPs.
Phil: Thank you very much, Hilton. So I'm going to go to Amr and ask the same question.
What is COP to you and your perspective of the conference?
Amr: Thank you Phil. Yeah. Cop to me is really aware the decision making [00:04:00] process related to issues related to climate occur. And by that I mean the negotiations sh track under the COP always results in decisions that are to be implemented by all parties to the convention.
And these decisions are, in fact, not only climate related, but it impacts development, it impacts economies. So, for example, the decision that was taken, or one of the decisions that was taken last year in Dubai talked about transitioning away from fossil fuels. This is a very major step and was like a landmark decision, which is the start of the end, we call it, of the fossil fuel era.
And this impacts whole economies, it impacts development around the world. So this is what 3D COP means to me.
Phil: Thanks Amr. I definitely want to dig more into that because the transition from one COP to the next COP and what happens in between is probably important and what key milestones or statements we make because of global [00:05:00] agreements is probably a very big piece of what I think people would like to understand.
But before we jump into that, I'd like to reach out to Okud and say, I see how you would answer the same question.
Ilkin: Thank you, Phil. This was our second COP. Last year, we attended for the first time as Sustainerra Solutions. But for me, my personal experience, COP is divided into two phases. With my previous background, with my previous career, when I was following from the UN perspective, but now we're following COP as a private sector, as a consulting firm.
And for me, this is a great platform that brings together all stakeholders. When you look at the international development, sustainability, literature, all the resolutions, all the UN Secretary General's statements, they indicate that achieving sustainability requires collective efforts. And by collective efforts, we mean not only the governments and the UN system, but also private sector, civil society, and all actors.
In that regard, I think COP is a unique [00:06:00] opportunity that brings together all stakeholders, and particularly focusing on environmental climate issues. So this is first thing, and this year's COP was unique for me because it was being held in Azerbaijan, in Baku, in our homeland. And we could see it not only one, one event that would last for 11 days, 12 days, but also at the country level, we could see the impact, which we will
Phil: talk about it later.
Absolutely. So, um, given what you've seen in previous COP events, Ilkin, can you share something that was particularly interesting or surprising of this COP, other than the fact, of course, that it was in your home country?
Ilkin: Last year, during COP28, I have attended only a short period of the event, of the conference.
And last year, to be honest, we didn't have much chance, much time to explore all the platforms, all the side events, because it's literally impossible. At the same time, there are hundreds of side events happening at [00:07:00] Green Zone, at Blue Zone. But this year, we have been participating in the process since the beginning.
We have been providing several services for the co presidency for local companies here. Therefore, we had more exposure to the process, more exposure to the program of the conference. What was unique for me and what was interesting for me is that we had a chance to dive into more substantive issues. And using this opportunity, I also want to thank Amir and all other colleagues who shared their knowledge of previous co ops and also ongoing negotiations.
Because when you look at the outcome documents decisions, there are so many acronyms, there are so many references, it's impossible, it's literally impossible to be on the same page from the first or even from the second or third co op. Therefore, another interesting point for me was that the awareness level on climate and environment, environmental issues at the country level, and [00:08:00] particularly among the private sector members, increased significantly.
And I think this will be one of the interesting observations that I can share.
Phil: Well, thanks a lot for that, Ilken. I think it's really important to highlight the difference between public sector and private sector engagements and how those collaborations can actually lead to positive outcomes. And we'll get to that in the next segment.
So I'm going to switch to Amr real quick and ask the same question. Given what you've seen in previous COP events, what's particularly interesting or surprising about this one? And if you can add, what mattered in the current role that you've had or in this event versus your experience in previous ones?
Amr: Okay. Thank you, Phil. Yeah, I think I would say what really surprised me or what was really interesting for me and this COP is the success we had at the end. Because to be honest, before this COP, we all know that we learned about the U. S. election results just maybe a couple of days. Prior to me going to Baku, but maybe like a week prior to the COP.
And [00:09:00] this really created a lot of pessimism, I would say, everybody was pessimistic. We were not expecting that this COP would come or would end and successful outcomes. But we were lucky to have very good outcomes. We will come later on to the details of the outcomes and how do we assess these outcomes in terms of success for developed versus developing countries.
But just to make it short, this was really interesting and this was really surprising the level of success this COP achieved. We managed to finalize the new collective quantified goal on finance which is the new goal for support for developing countries to be able to implement their climate action plans.
Also, we managed to finalize the all the rules related to the carbon markets, which would really make it operational and effective in addition to many other decisions that were taken. But that was really a very excellent outcome that we really thank our colleagues and our host in Azerbaijan for. Being [00:10:00] able to steer this process and to achieve such huge success.
What was different for me in this COP? In this COP, my minister, I was acting as an advisor to the Egyptian Minister of Environment and as a member of the Egyptian delegation. And my minister was in charge, in collaboration with the Minister of Environment from Australia, was in charge for facilitating the discussions and the negotiations at the ministerial level related to the new quantified, uh, collective goal.
Uh, luckily we succeeded to land. Uh, this, uh, as I said, uh, of course, uh, all the credit goes to the, our friends from Azerbaijan, the presidency team. We were just helping them. Uh, but this was really different for me to be part of the overall package of success that happened in this cup.
Phil: Well, Amr, it sounds like you played an amazing role in the conference in the, in working with the countries that you did.
I'm really looking forward to, um, learning more about how that actually played out because I'm in the U. S. I think there is [00:11:00] a perspective that what happens in the U. S. really matters. I mean, I'm, I'm, it can't, you can't move things forward without major play from major powers, but collaboration amongst all countries can make an impact.
And really the under, I really like to highlight. Your perspective on that and the lessons learned as we get deeper into the conversation. But I'm going to turn this same question back to Hilton and see what you felt about what was particularly interesting, what mattered in your role or the event versus previous ones.
Hilton: It's a great question. Well, first of all, COP, as I said before, it's a fascinating mechanism. It has so many layers, but I think that if, if I were to comment on something that I would consider a big success, this is ongoing, an ongoing process since Paris. We came from discussing very broad concepts, mechanisms, and now we're talking about budget, right?
We're talking about accountability. We're talking about responsibilities, who's going to bring money to the discussion, who's going to govern that money. And [00:12:00] it's not a coincidence that this is attracting more and more the private sector, right? All my clients, with no exception, are concerned about climate change much more than they were, I don't know, 15, 10 years ago, right?
And now they have tangible discussions that they can understand as well on, hey, this is going to cost something. We're going to have to contribute with our business to reach the national contributions. So it's very translatable to my world, the private sector, the business sector, and I think that we made a lot of progress since Paris and Baku was very important, the COP29 in Baku was really important because now we are openly discussing budgets that the first moment might sound like, Oh, this is not what we wanted.
It's only 300 billion. That's a lot of money, right? You can make observations around inflation. We had previous agreements around 100 billion, but it's not only the number anymore. Now we have better rules. Now we have better [00:13:00] responsibilities. They can be refined. They will be refined. It's a hell of a foundation.
To move forward to the next COPs and it's going to be in Brazil. COP30 is going to be in Brazil. So I think that the COP29 puts us in a very good position to start the discussions in Brazil.
Phil: Well, I want to definitely dig a lot more into the differences between the public and private sector engagement so that listeners can really get a good understanding of How each party plays in that.
But I want to go to another question before we transition to the discussion about budgets and accomplishments. That is the one about the actionability of the agreements. So I've never been to a COP. I've followed the last ones. I know it's a massive event and it sounds like it's growing in size and scope and importance.
Uh, site selection and actionability of decisions can be controversial. Lots of things I hear and read are people who say why is COP going to petro states as in the last, as some would argue, or the last three COPs have gone to states that are very friendly or wealth [00:14:00] created through the oil and gas industry, right?
So I'm curious, and I guess I'll start with Ilkin on this one. What would you say to those people who are skeptical about the site selection and actionability of COP?
Ilkin: Thank you. We have been closely following all those news and all those developments, but there is one important point that we need to consider.
COP is a United Nations event, and every member of the United Nations, they have a right to to host this or other similar events in their, in their countries. And according to the rules, every year, every COP is held in one of the, one of the member states of the regional groups. So there are different regional groups at the United Nations.
Western European group, GRULAC, which covers Latin American countries, and then EEG, Eastern European group, African group, Asia Pacific. So, this year's turn was for one of the member [00:15:00] states from the Eastern European Group. And as we are a member of the Eastern European Group, we presented our candidacy to host the event, and last year in Dubai, it was supported by the UN member states.
To host this event and the next year it's the it's turning of grulak countries Which will be Brazil and after Brazil it will be Western European group I believe there are two candidates Australia and Turkey to Turkey to host this event So I wouldn't Say that your natural resources or your landscape or your, your economic model should define whether you deserve hosting this event or not.
At the same time, I also mentioned this in, in the previous episode of the podcast on energy transition, we should not exclude all big economies from this process.
Phil: Well, you know, and I thank you for that, Ilken. I was actually going to comment on the fact that [00:16:00] during the Energy Transition podcast that we had in previous episodes, and if you haven't seen that one, folks, who are listeners, I definitely recommend taking a listen to it, one of the things I learned about Azerbaijan is the significance in being able to transition, transition To all sorts of renewable energy and distribute that energy to different parts of the world, because that's one of the things that the country has become best at.
And I think your point about, your point about natural resources and landscaping, not defining who someone should, who should be able to host an event, is a particularly important one for people to think about all the different perspectives of equity and representation that need to go into this conversation, because different countries and different regions.
have developed based on their natural resources and their expertise and shouldn't be left out because of one person or one region's agenda. So I really appreciate that. Um, I'm going to shift a little bit and come back to what Amr talked about as we, as we lead into the section where we talk about negotiations.
Let Key accomplishments and the role of the government sector versus [00:17:00] the role of the private sector. So I'm going to start with Amir. You've been extensively involved in the negotiations, and I think since 2015, and you've been a senior advisor to the COP 27 presidency, doing a lot of work. Can you give us an, a summary of Negotiations after the event, you already highlighted two key, two key accomplishments of the quantified goal on finance and the rules related to carbon markets.
Those sound massive. Is there anything else that you would add to that? Are there any other extra surprises? What are some of the implications that come to mind because of those? Agreements.
Amr: Yes. Thank you, Phil. Yeah, I think, of course, we had not only these two outcomes that came out of the COP in Azerbaijan, but these were like the two major outcomes, the new quantified collective goal on finance and, uh, article six.
However, there were other decisions coming out, like, for example, the decision on the mitigation work program, where it gave some, like, very high level key messages related to mitigation, specifically [00:18:00] on the topic that was discussed last year under the mitigation work program, which is on cities. focusing on urban systems and buildings.
Uh, so this was one decision. We were expecting a decision on just transition work program, but unfortunately there was no agreement on this decision. So it was postponed to next year in Brazil. Similarly, there was also a decision expected related to the, what is called the UAE dialogue, which focuses on implementation of the outcomes of the global stock take, uh, which took place in Dubai.
There was also no agreement on that and it was postponed to the following year. Uh, there was a decision on adaptation. It was not expected to be something substantial because this is an interim decision. The major decision should be taken in Belem in Brazil next year on the indicators related to the adaptation.
Global goal, or what we call the GGA, the Global Goal on Adaptation. In addition to other decisions also related to finance, to [00:19:00] transparency, but they are not measured. So I would mainly focus on the NCQG and Article 6 and the implications. The implications would be huge, of course, for the private sector and for the business.
If we start with the NCQG, it calls on parties to scale up all the investments for climate change action. To reach 1. 3 trillion by 2035. This includes all actors, means private, public, blended finance, uh, whatever source you can think of should all contribute together to reach this aspirational goal of 1.
3 trillion per year. To allow developing countries to implement their climate action, this is a massive amount, and you can imagine the amount of business that would be generated because of this. If we go to one level lower, which is the quantified goal, itself, which should succeed the 100 billion. We had [00:20:00] before the 100 billion per year, which was supposed to be reached by 2020.
And this includes the mobilization of climate related finance from developed to developing countries. Now, the successive goal, which we agreed upon in Baku is 300 billion by 2035. Although the number might look as if we tripled the amount or the previous goal, but if we really dig deeper into this goal, it is not really tripling.
It is far less than tripling because the previous goal was in 2020. The new goal is in 2035. So if you want, if you discount the value. 300 billion in in 2035 to the value equivalent value in 2020. Maybe it would be around 200 or 220 billion. In addition, the 220 billion, this is a rough estimate from my side.
Of course, do not quote before that, but just to illustrate the point that 220 billion includes also. Contributions [00:21:00] from developing countries. And this is what really is not really clear to the public. But if you read the decision carefully, it includes all the outflows from the multilateral development banks.
And these outflows include contributions from developing countries. So just to make a long story short, the, the new quantified collective goal is not as meaningful or as Progressive as we would have liked it to be as developing countries. However, it gives a signal to the market that this regime is still working.
It did not collapse because of the pulling out of the U. S. It is still there and there will be huge investments coming in clean energy and clean technologies, be it in renewable energy and energy efficiency and electric vehicles. Methane reduction, whatever technology which helps to reduce emissions and also to the adaptation technologies which helps parties or countries increase their resilience to be able to face the impacts, the negative [00:22:00] impacts of climate change.
So this is one major area. The second area is about carbon markets. Carbon markets as billions of US dollars market where parties or projects which are implemented to reduce greenhouse gases. The credits that are generated or the emission reductions that are generated can be traded between countries to achieve their climate goals, and this also creates a lot of business for the private sector.
Phil: Well, you covered a lot there, and I just want to ask you to, with your expertise, to help us. Make it really digestible for people who are maybe not as familiar, right? To me, 220 billion, 300 billion by 2035, 1. 3 trillion, those numbers sound massive and mind boggling. But when I compare them to what, you know, major powers in the world spend on certain things, they're not as massive numbers, relatively speaking, as we'd like to see.
So, you know, I've heard people talk about things like the Great Green Wall in [00:23:00] different countries of Africa where I see pictures of lots of people out there literally digging by hand and using ancient techniques to capture water and regrow and regenerate that desertified region. Similarly, I saw something in Saudi Arabia that was doing the same thing.
The reason I bring those up is they're very different. Countries or regions with different financial capabilities. Can you talk a little bit about an example or discussion about how you make it practical and how you rationalize the differences in the dollars between different countries, countries or regions?
Amr: Yeah, maybe I'll just give a little bit of a background. Where did this 1. 3 trillion come from? Just before I answer your question, there were estimates of how much money is needed or how much finance is needed. for developing countries to be able to implement their current, what we call the nationally determined contributions, which are basically the targets under the Paris agreement that parties deliver under this agreement.
So the estimate [00:24:00] was around 5. 8 to 5. 9 trillion US dollars until 2030. If you divide this number by five or six remaining years until we reach 2030, this is, was the origin between 1. 2 and 1. 3 trillion that are really needed for these countries or for the developing countries to be able to implement their indices.
As you correctly mentioned, it varies among regions and it varies among countries, the, the type of projects that they are able to implement to be able to achieve their target. So maybe I can talk about Egypt to give concrete examples. We have a renewable energy target of reaching 42 percent by 2025. of renewable energy in the electricity energy mix by 2030.
And this 42 percent would come from mainly solar power, from wind energy, and from hydro. And we need a lot of finance to implement that. But because of the lack of finance that we were offered since we started implementing our NDC in [00:25:00] 2020 until now, we have to expect not to reach this 42%. But we might reach maybe 30 percent because we need a lot of investments to be injected in the grid to be able to absorb this massive quantity of renewable energy.
But because of the lack of finance, we have to, of course, respect our target in terms of emissions, but we will rely on part of nuclear energy. to be able to reach the, the target, the equivalent target in terms of emission reduction. So this is something that barriers on the ground that can make countries, you know, switch their original plans.
Other countries might have targets related to forestry, as you mentioned, this like the green wall. So maybe the investments required are not huge, but however, All of these investments were calculated, as I said, and were estimated at 5. 8 trillion U. S. dollars by 2030. And that was basically the origin for the negotiations of the new Quantified Collective Goal.[00:26:00]
Phil: Thanks very much for that, Amr. I'm going to go back to Elkin real quick on that same question, because I'm curious if you could highlight quickly the impact for a country like Azerbaijan in this contribution or, and how does that matter for companies that you might work with? Is Azerbaijan, I know you need to make the investments, for example, in grid infrastructure to be able to distribute renewable energy, but there are other states around that probably need it for other reasons.
Can you comment on the regional perspective that Amr shared?
Ilkin: So, energy transition in Azerbaijan, it started maybe since last couple of years, even when the decision on hosting COP29 was made. But I would say that hosting COP29 and also successful adoption of the decision on new collective quantified goal would boost this process.
At the same time, during the COP, we have seen that new taxonomy was adopted. So we're now reviewing the details and just to understand for ourselves how it [00:27:00] will affect our further business development and also the operations of the businesses. So the financing part, even though the mechanism is still not clear, but I think it's a good signal to the market that financing is there.
Even in a, in a limited amount, like 300 billion, obviously we won't, we'll be getting a certain part of that amount. From the legislation part, now the taxonomy is there. And now we're also working on the, on the other regulations, like integrating ESG, reporting on the progress, reporting on your impact. So legislation component is also under development.
Another issue is on the awareness level, overall, the maturity level of the market, of the private sector. So, with the COP, I would say that there was a leapfrog in terms of the awareness. Another point here is that all energy transition related [00:28:00] projects are being implemented at the state level, right? We see big players like Mazda, Aqua Power.
Even BP is now investing in some renewable projects in Azerbaijan. And we have established Sokar Green, which is a state oil company, but now there's a new company which is overseeing the renewable developments and also implementation. Another interesting observation here in this region is that Now, waste management and circularity is gaining more and more attention from the private sector.
Phil: And that's a great lead in, actually, to the section that we wanted to, I wanted to go into next, talking about the role of the private sector at the event. And I kind of want to start with Hilton. What I'm trying to understand is, you talked about your clients seeing the, seeing climate change. Issues of impact in those businesses, right?
We know that government interaction is expected. We also know that government sometimes can move at government pace, that the private sector can [00:29:00] influence public sector decisions, and sometimes the private sector needs to move at times when government may or may not. It'd be an agreement. You might be operating in one region of the world that has a certain point of view on how to operate, but another region of the world that doesn't, and you need to make a decision.
So, can you talk a little bit about budget discussions and the agreements and how they've impacted private sector entities and their investment decisions?
Hilton: Sure. Well, first of all, I think that since Dubai, the presence of the private sector and the cops has grown exponentially, right? Uh, to give you some perspective from Brazil alone, we had 2000 people, right?
It's not only the delegates sitting on the table. We had lots of Brazilian companies. We had lots of Brazilian NGOs. We had lots of Brazilian individuals that wanted to understand what's going on. When we talk about economies, economies vary from country to country. You have countries where there's a lot of weight from the government.
You have countries where there's a lot of weight [00:30:00] from the private sector, right? But regardless, regardless how you run your economy, countries now have to disclose their, their goals for the reduction of, uh, carbon emissions, right? Those are the national contributions, right? In a country by itself. doesn't emit anything.
What emits is the businesses that the country runs or it allows it to run, right? So if you take Brazil as an example, agriculture in Brazil is massive, right? We are an oil producer as well. We have manufacturing. All the sectors in Brazil are in some way or fact or fashion engaged now with decarbonization, right?
During COP, the Brazilian government passed a federal law on the carbon market for the country. So we're not, we're not going to have better rules, how to trade carbon offsets, trade carbon emissions, capture and so forth. So the private sector needs, and is already doing [00:31:00] that to translate what its contributions are.
Work with their peers and their sectors on the national level in certain countries to define what the sector emissions are going to be. And then it comes to the federal government to unify all the sectors and all the major players of the economy to make it happen, right? I don't believe in anything that's going to be top down or down top.
This is a, this is a complex effort. It's, it's a, it's a very, uh, challenging transition process, right? But we had countries doing co op announcing days before they had to do it, their national contributions, right? The United Kingdom announced it one week before, right? Brazil announced it like four days before the final deadline, something like that.
So there is a lot of engagement from the government. There is a lot of engagement from the public sectors. Uh, it varies from country to country. Awareness varies. Uh, the amount of resources varies, but [00:32:00] I don't see any of my clients, zero, zero of my clients. Not worried about climate change. And an important aspect, it can be a risk for your business, right?
You can have less crops, you can have less water to produce beverage or to, uh, cool down the steel you're producing in your steel mill factory. But it's also how to do things differently, right? We cannot emit as much carbon as we are doing now to do the same thing. So you either change technology, you either change.
Parts of your economy, right? Which is what some, some countries in Europe are doing. So everything is, it's very combined. You cannot say that this is going to be predominantly more important than this. And I see it happening, especially where I come from in Brazil.
Phil: Yeah. I think those are critically important points because whether you're talking about Business to business operations, where you're talking about business to business, the government operations.
Let's say, whether you're talking about things [00:33:00] for aerospace or energy or infrastructure, sometimes the government is the payer, sometimes the business is a payer, sometimes the private energy is the payer or investor, and all these folks need to comply, need to be part of the plan of a state or a government.
Uh, objectives in meeting their climate goals. And these all need to need to roll together. And I'm very curious about, very curious about the types of companies that you guys see and how they're tackling this. But there's two things I want to, I'm going to work in before we run out of time, because we're in our, we're in the home stretch here.
So the next two segments we really want to dig into. It's about the event, like what things happen in the main event versus things that happen in the side event. And then talking about the, the next cop. So, and if we can, if we can work in some of the, the, the sweetness of talking about how actually corporations work with different government entities or in such to achieve this, that would be the icing on the top.
So, I'll just go, I'll start with Ilkin and then work my way back around. There are a lot of side events. And [00:34:00] often at conferences, there are things that get done at the side events that are outside of the main events. Can you talk about one of the events you went to to showcase how certain things can happen by going to COP and by participating, even if you're only going to a side event?
Ilkin: So this year, we have not only just attended the events, but we have been co organizing. If I'm not mistaken, around 18 side events, both at the green zone and the blue zone. So basically there are two zones at COP, at blue zone and green zone. Blue zone is mainly for negotiations, uh, but green zone is more for private sector, NGOs and, and, and it's publicly accessible.
So we have, um, organized around 18 events and some of them were with our imaging associates. Some of them were, uh, with our other partners. Be them organizations like international organizations or private sector members. Uh, and this year we have specifically focused on few topics [00:35:00] like water, technological innovations, and, and circularity waste management issues.
From our perspective, being at COP, either attending, just attending or organizing these events, they allow you. to get more into the details and to be more, more exposure to the substantive issues. It's a platform that brings together like minded experts, people, stakeholders, to hear different perspectives.
In one of our events, for instance, that we did with Hilton on water scarcity and its impact on business continuity. There we had companies that represented speakers from companies representing technological innovations. We had perspective of consulting firms. We had the perspective of the business, business itself.
So all these perspectives, all these interventions, they kind [00:36:00] of complete each other. and show the full picture. What are the current challenges? What are the upcoming challenges? What innovations are already there that most of the people, most of the actors are not familiar with? And what are the best practices?
Another event that we organized was specific on waste management. There we brought together different actors Companies that are involved on the groundwork, involved in the groundwork in terms of waste management. We brought together the Chamber of Commerce. We brought together private sector members who are the producers of the waste.
So I believe it created an interesting synergy and also an important and very relaxed platform that we can hear each other. We can share our perspectives. And think about the future and shape our future interventions, our approach, how we can be more [00:37:00] efficient, uh, how we can achieve more, uh, with the integration of the new technologies.
Phil: Super. Thanks for that. It really gives a little color to what happens at one of those side events. Now, Hilton, Bilkin mentioned you, and I know that you did some, a side event related to water resilience or, and its impact on agriculture. I'm curious if you want to talk about that, or if there are other side events that really showcase the benefit of engaging outside of a formal comp meeting.
Hilton: Again, the richness of the ecosystem makes it impossible for you not to absorb new ideas and to be pollinized by new ideas, right? When we talk about climate resilience, something that the clients are much more aware and worried about now than they were You can talk about the very basis of your supply chain, which is agriculture or mining, right?
But you can also go all the way down to the top. Even if you're producing semiconductors in a fancy 21st century facility, If [00:38:00] the street after your gate is flooded because of a huge storm, you're not going to be able to sell your goods, right? So water challenges around climate change are really transversal, right?
And then you get your call and you hear things like, Hey, I might be concerned about protecting this forest because I'm interested in the water. And another stakeholder comes in and say, Hey, That will become a very touristical area. We can create tourism and touristical potential there, right? So I saw very interesting presentations around preservation, protection of natural resources and tourism walking all together, right?
And that's not for creating sanctuaries where people can see nature. That's for our own protection, right? It's for the perfection of business. Sustainability, it's to avoid massive storms, it's to avoid massive floods. Nature has a great potential to control that and I think that will be [00:39:00] fundamental. We participated on a variety of sections around water, water education, the creation of the future leaders around climate change.
Climate resilience, and whenever I will go to another panel, you start seeing brand new stuff, like brand new fuels, like hydrogen, an entire new economy based on hydrogen, hydrogen creation, hydrogen transportation, hydrogen infrastructure. So there's so much, there's so much that I could tell. I'm sorry we don't have a lot of time.
We could talk for hours.
Phil: I'm definitely sure we could talk for hours, but unfortunately we are running low on time. And I know you are busy gentlemen who need to get back to running your business. So I'm going to do the last section in a bit of a lightning round. I'll start with Amr, then go to Ilkin and wrap up with, with Hilton.
What we're talking about is looking forward to the next COP. What progress do you hope to see? What sort of things are you thinking about? Are there any particular issues that didn't get tackled in this COP that you want to take the year to prepare for and get tackled in the, in the next [00:40:00] COP? You know, give us a minute or so of a perspective of things you're thinking about as you look forward to the next COP.
Can you go first, Amr?
Amr: Yes, sure, sure. I would say we are lucky to have the next COP in Brazil and I will talk about one specific topic, which is mitigation. I was honored to lead or to co chair What is called the Sharm El Sheikh Ambition and Implementation Mitigation Work Program. And under this work program, we or all the parties were supposed to discuss topics related to mitigation, different technologies in different sectors.
and what can really be done to achieve the 1. 5 degrees mission that we have. Under these discussions, we failed, to be honest, to achieve or to harness the potential of this mitigation work program because of the polarized views of many groups. Some groups and parties keep pushing for a top down approach of kind of defining and imposing new sectoral targets, while others While other groups and [00:41:00] parties do not want to hear anything about top down approaches and imposing of sectoral targets.
However, our fellow Brazilians, they have a very well balanced view on this mitigation agenda, and they even are part of what is called the Troika Mission 1. 5 agenda. that they are leading. And we hear a lot of their interventions and their submissions under the Mitigation Work Program, and their view is to try to utilize this Mitigation Work Program as a tool to be able to achieve the 1.
5 degrees mission. And we hope that under their leadership and under their presidency, We can really harness the potential of this mitigation work program by kind of siding away the controversial issues and the issues that kind of hinders the progress under this agenda item. Hopefully we get something really meaningful which would help parties implement their NDCs.
Shows technologies, shows the finance, and what [00:42:00] we are really, really looking for is how to implement the NDCs on the ground. And we hope that our Brazilians colleagues will help us do that and achieve that.
Phil: Uh, thanks for that Amar. You know, I had a very important light bulb moment while you were talking, and it basically says, highlighted something we talked about earlier, that rotating ownership, regional leadership and representation.
gives the opportunity to kind of break through some of the polarization that you might have seen, right? Because when you said Brazil's presidency has the ability to drive progress on this issue, it actually allows me to understand how you could use that, that structure. To work towards a goal in the area that really matters to a region and to pull together a coalition to actually move forward.
So I'm pretty excited to hear that and looking forward to whatever Hilton will add, but I'll go to Ilkin next. Ilkin, do you want to share what you're thinking about as you look forward to the next COP?
Ilkin: So my expectation for the next COP or even for the next COPs that we will be having more clarity on the [00:43:00] mechanisms in terms of dispersing the funds.
And another expectation, I know it sounds like a wishful thought, but I really want us to have less polarization and not to have these debates as developed and developing countries. But, uh, when, when there will be climate catastrophes, they're not gonna, I mean, it's not gonna select whether this country is developed or developing, right?
So we have one, one earth, one planet earth. And again, I know that we're living in a, in a, in a realistic world, but this is just a wishful thought. And another expectation is that. This year's adoption of NCQG, I think it's a positive signal that the hope is not lost yet. So with the global cooperation, with multilateralism,
we can overcome some critical obstacles. [00:44:00] Maybe the achievement, the result won't be as planned, but still I'm a supporter of incremental changes rather than having take or leave offers.
Phil: Wow, you said so many things there that got me thinking. I think that yes, less polarization is a really important thing.
And that clarity of distribution of funds that you spoke about is also really something really great to work off. I don't think it's wishful thinking. For people to understand that we're all on one planet, and that we all can't run away from climate change. Let's look at the latest big hurricane in the U.
S. Everyone expected that it was different, that it was going to be, going to be catastrophic to Florida, and it was actually catastrophic to the mountains of North Carolina. Because the amount of rain that happened, and the amount of infrastructure that wasn't able to handle it, because it wasn't expecting it.
And that, So, the more people understand that these systems are interconnected and that we don't really have climate havens as people might have suggested, but that we can take actions together in [00:45:00] distributing the funds and looking at different perspectives about them and make something better. So, that's pretty exciting.
So, I'm going to wrap it up with Hilton because Hilton is representing the host country for the next COP. I'm curious, what are you looking for and hoping to see coming out of the event?
Hilton: Well, Brazil is absolutely unique along the lines that we have almost what I would call a perfect triangle. We have very respected diplomacy that works globally for more than one century, right?
So Brazil is one of the few countries on earth that has diplomatic relationships with all existing countries in the world, right? Brazil basically has no enemies or no sides in lots of the discussions. Second, Brazil has a very diversified economy, right? We have agriculture, we have mining, we have oil, we have manufacturing, we have services.
It's a diversified economy, so there's [00:46:00] not a single sector that will prevail. And last but not the least, we are a large population that has a lot of organization around some of the things that need to be discussed, right? The NGOs that are present in Brazil are quite active in trying to protect our natural resources.
Some of them are very successful. We have concerns about How inequal our society is, we're trying to improve and so forth. So, it's a place for collectiveness. It's not a place for polarization, a place for isolated ideas, right? And I think that comes in a very nice moment because, as I mentioned before, lots of previous work has been done.
This journey started in 1992 in Rio de Janeiro with the first ECO 1992. It wasn't a COP yet, but I think it was the predecessor of the COPs, the Alstair Lopetekos of the COPs. And we have a very solid foundation to build upon now. And Brazil is a place where you can [00:47:00] find agreement. You can find collectiveness and I think that's gonna happen, right?
We're gonna detail more some things around governance, some things around how to allocate these funds as you can was mentioning, and go from there. I'm really glad you host. I'm really proud to host and I think you're gonna have an, a great copy in Brazil.
Phil: I'm looking forward to to it. I look forward to seeing what happens there and hope that I can make it down and participate as well.
Thank you all for your clear and candid and high quality insights. Really appreciate what you shared with us today and look forward to seeing what comes next. Thanks a lot.
Thanks again to our guests for coming on the show to discuss their insights and reflections based on their experience at COP. Here are my top three takeaways from the conversation. One, a major outcome from COP 29 was the adoption of the new collective quantified goal of 300 billion annually by 2035.
Its [00:48:00] emphasis on mobilizing private, public, and blended finance provides critical funding for climate initiatives. While the number may be lower than many stakeholders had hoped, it's still an incremental step in the right direction. 2. The private sector plays an increasingly pivotal role in driving global climate action and has a growing influence at COP.
Companies are increasingly concerned about climate change and are more actively seeking solutions to address it. and alignment with climate objectives. 3. Looking ahead to COP30 in Brazil, there's optimism for decreased polarization and increased understanding that we're all on one planet. There are no climate safe havens and we will all be impacted regardless of whether we are in a developed or developing nation.
Brazil has strong diplomatic ties around the world and it'll be exciting to see the outcomes of the negotiations there next year. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Rethinking EHS. We'd like to thank our exceptional guests for sharing their expertise. Please don't forget to hit that subscribe button wherever you listen to [00:49:00] podcasts so you never miss an episode.
To register for Inogen Alliance's webinar about COP29 on January 15th with a live Q& A and additional experts, please visit the link in our show notes. Webinar replay is available at the same link. For more tools and tips on how to work globally with a local lens, check out the Global Resources page on the Inogen Alliance website to access webinars, downloads, eBooks, and more.
This link can also be found in our show notes or visit www. inogenalliance. com forward slash resources. Follow Inogen Alliance on LinkedIn for the latest updates. And until next time, let's innovate, inspire, and rethink EHS together.